Ghostface Killah Talks ‘Supreme Clientele 2’ & Rapping About Medicaid When He’s 80

New Ghostface!

Sequels to classic albums almost always fall short of their predecessor, so I wasn’t quite sure what to expect when Ghost announced that he was planning on revisiting Supreme Clientele, the best album in his extensive catalog and one of the best rap albums in the history of the genre. And while part two doesn’t reach the heights that the first one did, Supreme Clientele 2 exceeded my expectations and serves as a solid spiritual companion to a project that I personally hold in high regard.

The production is the star of the show for me. Each beat sounds crisp and they knock on proper speakers, especially after listening to the private link the label sent me last week. I don’t want to downplay how good Starks is rapping on this, though. The 55-year-old MC’s darts, storytelling and humor are still as sharp as ever.

There’s “4th Disciple,” a return the chamber he entered in his memorable verse at the end of Wu-Tang Forever’s “Impossible,” where he raps about watching a close friend fighting for his life after being shot. Then, on a lighter note you have a track like “Georgy Porgy,” where he’s rapping over a sample of Toto’s similarly named hit — reminiscent of The Pretty Toney Album’s “Holla,” where he goes in over “La-La Means I Love You” by The Delfonics.

And I can’t forget the skits, which have become a lost art, where Ghost makes fun of the “pause” game, has Dave Chappelle playing a gameshow host, and has the legendary host of WBLS’ The Quiet Storm with Lenny Green introducing “The Zoom,” where Tone enters his Wizard of Poetry chamber.

Ghost pulled up to New York’s Billboard office earlier this week to sit down for a conversation on his decision to put this project together, the current state of the game, and having no qualms about still rapping and performing when he’s old and gray.

Check out our interview below.

So, for Supreme Clientele 2, what made you want to tap back into that chamber? Because you’ve explained this a bunch — that you wanted to rap some fly s—t, didn’t matter if it made sense.

See, people get it twisted. That was like on two songs, “Nutmeg” and “One.”

That’s true. They opened the album.

Yeah, that was the different styles. I was in Africa one day, I didn’t have no music, and I’m in the village where all the poor people is at. No hotel, no nothing. You gotta s—t and piss outside, do everything, bathe outside, all that s—t like that. So, you know, I’m just out there, just just walking around, and it’s just grass and dirt and looking up at the sky and s—t like, you know, let me make up a style real quick. I had a beat playing in my head and I just [went], “Scientific, my hand kiss it” — all that started coming, because I was like, “Yo, let me just write a rhyme where I just play with words.” That’s really what it was, and people just took it serious.

My raps is like ziti.

Hip-hop is everything, yo, you can do whatever you want to do with with rap. It don’t just got to be the way you just say it is. Like I told those people, this s—t is like paint, man. It’s like art.

I was gonna ask you about that quote because it’s always getting shared, especially when Tumblr was poppin.’ You said, “I don’t give a f—k if you don’t know what I’m talking about – this is art. When you go see a painting on the wall and it looks bugged out because you don’t know what the f—k he thinking, because he ain’t got no benches, no trees there, it’s just a splash. The n—a that did it know what the f—k it is.” You describe it like a Jackson Pollock painting where it’s just splashes on the canvas.

That’s it. Like, a Martian could’ve came down here talking s—t or rapping over a beat. You don’t understand what the hell he’s saying, but the s—t sounds crazy. You like, “Oh s—t, but you don’t understand what the hell the n—a said.

It’s like listening to French jazz. I don’t know what the f—k they’re saying, but it sounds great.

That s—t sounds crazy. That’s where I was at with it at that time like that. That’s why I did I laid it down on some abstract s—t.

Did you always plan on making a Supreme Clientele sequel? Because you’ve said that you were stashing songs away for a while.

People were calling for it, so if I had something around that felt like it, I would save it. So, when that time presented itself, you start looking in the computer to see what you got. You pick certain sounds and verses that might feel right. You’re just trying to figure it out and catch that vibe, put a theme behind it.

What were some of the tracks that you recorded recently?

The first song on the album, “Iron Man,” The M.O.P. joint, the one with Styles P and Conway, the break beat joints are like three or four years old, and “Windows” is the probably the newest one. I recorded that real quick in the the fourth quarter. We needed something that was a little more up-tempo.

Did you feel any pressure at all? Because you’ve talked about how Ironman isn’t necessarily one of your favorites, even though it’s considered a classic.

It’s a classic, but it was a it was a classic at one of my lowest points. My head wasn’t right. You see how Supreme came back after that.

I was young and in high school when it came out, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I remember the first Supreme Clientele being under the radar when it first dropped. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, when it first dropped it was a little under the radar because Nas was on fire and somebody else had came out. Leaving off of Cuban Linx, I was going crazy. I could’ve followed up behind that, but a lot of things was going on. My headpace wasn’t right, my best friend getting locked up, diabetes, s—t was just dark for a n—a. It was just one of those winters, man.

Like everything happening at once back-to-back.

It was one of the hardest points in your life where you really couldn’t figure it out, you just living in it. That’s why the beats were kind of dark and verbally I wasn’t there. And on top of that, I only got two months to finish it, I didn’t have six months.

Because you were dealing with the label and had a deadline?

Yeah, RZA presented me a contract like, “Yo, what’s up? You want to, you know, this, that,and the third,” and it’s like this is my first go-around, so I’m like, “Yeah.” I took the contract thinking I can get it done. Who’s gonna turn down $5-$600,000 at that time? And, you know, I probably could’ve got more if I would’ve known. But you know what? It was new to me, and I tried to do it in two months, or whatever that was it, bro. That’s why I don’t do deadlines.

The business has changed so much since then. How have you been able to adapt?

You understand it more now and you know what you want. Back then, you gotta take what somebody gave you, you know what I mean? You had a voice, but you didn’t know how to use it, so I think now is way better.

Has your writing process changed from when you were younger?

Yeah, I was smoking weed back then, drinking 40s and all that other s—t during the Cuban Linx era. I don’t smoke no weed at all, and I drink occasionally. We doing rhymes and darts sober. I ain’t gonna front, though, when you had the weed, it’ll open up a little closed door — and that was the only thing I used to maybe deal with when I stopped smoking because after a while it just had me questioning myself.

The weed is stronger now too. It’s easier to get anxiety and paranoid. I gotta turn the joint off when I feel it start to creep in.

What? Paranoid? Pretty Toney was crazy. I stopped during The Pretty Toney Album. I ain’t do it no more.

You mentioned on Bootleg Kev that the mythical project you have with MF DOOM is ready. Did you guys play around with you being Tony Stark Iron Man, and he’s Doctor Doom with the samples, or just with the raps or whatever.

[Laughs.] Nah, we never really went that far with it. We was on a plane one day and he was like – DOOM was funny, though, because he’s sitting next to me but he likes to whisper a lot – he was like, “Yo, I ain’t gonna front, I got my s—t from you, I got my style from you.” I don’t know if he was talking about just the mask or being abstract with the words, or whatever the case may be. And I came up with a thing like, “DOOM, check this out. We should just do like two for fives and go ahead and just let these s—ts out, like we do five packs.” He was all with it and everything.

Whenever I met him, it was like a movie. I pulled up on him one day in London. I see him in front of a hotel that I pulled up to. He was facing the hotel and I’m in the car on the street, and I cracked the window down a little bit, and screamed out, “Yo, DOOM.” He’s looking around and he was like, “How you know it was me?” What you mean how I know it was you? I’m looking at you. DOOM was just DOOM, man. He was always on the move, moving fast. You could never really just get him to sit down, down. Like, how we sitting down right now. He was always walking around sweating bullets drinking his 40.

He was one of those brothers. He was a smart, intelligent brother, very wise. He had knowledge of self. That’s what we were able to identify with, because we could build with each other. We been tackled the music and he held on to it. Everybody would ask me, and it’s like, DOOM has everything.

Then time went by, and where I recorded it at was at my man Ant’s studio — and I know the difference from Ant’s studio to what I’ve been doing now, so all I wanted to do was do the same verses over again to make them clearer on another system. Make them sound like right now. Because even back then, the mics to me were kinda like… and the flows could’ve been a little bit better and s—t like that. Because that’s an important joint, even though people be like, “Oh no, I like when it sounds old and sh—t,” like that or whatever. But it was like, “Nah. Clean this sh—t up and that’s that.” But we never got a chance to do it, man. I woke up one morning and I heard the news.

So, if the family or the estate decided to put it out, you would be fine with it?

I would have to… listen, if you want me to be a part of it. They can do what they wanna do, I can’t stop it because I don’t got it. I still got some of the verses in the computer, so I can remix whatever the f—k I want if you wanna play me like that.

It was funny when you told Big Boy that you decided to take the mask off because it was uncomfortable. You wouldn’t put a new mask on? You haven’t found one?

I would but I wouldn’t wear it every day. I’ll just put it on maybe before the show or something like that.

The Wu put people onto a lot of movies like John Woo’s The Killer and kung fu flicks. What are you watching these days? Any new s—t that inspires you?

Once in the blue. I might go to YouTube and catch a flick, no. I watch a lot of sports, but with movies it depends if somebody tells me to check something out. Other than that, I just be f—king with police channels, First 48, true crime. TV One has this show called Fatal Attraction, I watch For My Man. Martin and The Jamie Foxx Show. My No. 1 go-to are blaxploitation films like The Mack and Super Fly. I might catch Scarface, but that’s like four hours long. You fall asleep and wake back up. they still gunning.

There’s some funny skits on the album. The Wu always have good skits. Why are they important?

You gotta have a skit or two. I grew up on De La Soul. They the ones that really got me onto skits.

What happened to Woodrow the Basehead? Is he alive, did he OD?

See, we had humor and everything was colorful. trying to reduplicate something that you did to a T, it’s like you can’t make the same baby you just had. You got a child, you gotta let the second one be the second one. The game is so twisted right now. I spent my lot of money on samples, but you gotta really get those TV skits like you said.

How did that “Purple Hearts” joint come together on Kendrick’s album Mr. Morale? You went into your Wizard of Poetry chamber.

That’s my favorite chamber. He reached out and then we got on the phone, and he told me what he wanted like, “Yo, do this style like how you be doing this and doing that.” So, I wrote two verses for him so he could pick one.

There’s an ode to the “Domestic Violence” track on RZA’s Bobby Digital album on there, I don’t know if you had noticed. The track “We Cry Together” with the actress Taylour Paige where they’re arguing with each other. You can hear the “do, do, do” digital tag and everything. The Alchemist produced it. I found that interesting because he also reached out to you, he must be tapped in.

Oh word? Wow. Yo, he’s a wizard, man. He’s a real wizard of poetry. He’s smart. I could just tell by the way he does his thing, how he calculate, and he’s talented on top of that.

What’s the biggest difference you see today compared to when you guys were doing your thing? You gave Big Boy a great quote about 1993 when you said there was a certain feeling in the air when it came to rap music and just hip-hop in general.

I was surrounded by people that made me wanna go write. Mobb Deep, Biggie and Nas made me wanna go write. My brothers, the same thing. I hear The Genius and it’s like, “Oh, my God.” you know, That’s the difference. These n—as now don’t make you want to raise no pen. You just doing it because you got an obligation you got to fulfill or because you love it. Back in the days, it was just more vintage, man, more iller. We really had to be in the studio. It wasn’t like now where you’re sending verses.

It was more of a collaborative team experience.

That’s why older rappers got stories. The Internet helped in some ways but also f—ked our s—t up. Yo, you got corny n—as gettin’ on, man. It’s like, “Yo, you not even like that.” You remember back in the days, you had to go get in that cypher. You had to go get in there with ODB and these n—as and shoot your s—t. If you came with anything that these n—as is coming with now, you wouldn’t want to get in there, you would know in your heart, like, “I can’t get in there with these guys.” Know what I mean? ‘Cause you gonna feel it. You gonna know that you’re a joke because you’ll get smoked.

That would force you to go home and write. Now you can get ahead and be over there and throw any kind of darts you want as long as you got a funny line in there or a funny video, f—k around and go viral, man. We didn’t have to go viral. Your darts is what did it. We don’t need no gimmicks, we need no Internet and all that other sucker s—t.

You had to go to Stretch & Bobbito and tear it down.

Had to go there. We were the last. I was thinking about that the other day. We was the last of that, man. Arsenio, The Keenan Ivory Wayans Show, we had videos on Video Music Box. These n—as never touched Rap City: Tha Basement. That’s how it was. If you had on a million dollars in jewelry, you had to have a name. You couldn’t come around here with none of that sh—t on, and we had on baggy jeans. These little n—as walking around with all that sh—t on popping sh—t, and you never been pressed. We from that era. It’s even more like wrestling right now, it’s WW, f—king E, man.

People always rap is like wrestling but it was a little less like that back then.

Because n—as still get busy. Now you can’t even touch a n—a, but you can have this unknown cat from f—king Russia, talking fly, talking big s—t all in the comments. I don’t like that s—t. Then you go to his page and there’s no posts, no nothing.

Yeah, man, you gotta be careful. All they’re doing is trying to get you to argue. Rage bait.

I can’t do that s—t, man. I can do with the ‘Gram. I could do without all that sh—t, man. Then the game started beating you even more with all that streaming sh—t. You don’t get no sales. Who the f—k thought of that? The slave masters. The n—as that’s out there that run everything. You see how we sitting around the table like this? That’s how they came up with this f—king stream of sh—t. We gonna give you $4,000 off of every f—king million streams. S—t is slavery and it was slavery before.

How would you make your money if you were coming up in this era?

You gotta do a bunch of s—t. A deal is a deal, man, you know? I figured that out a long time ago. You really can’t really get mad at a deal, because you shook hands on it. I’m just looking at the system. The system is crazy. Snoop did a billion streams and he got a check for like $40,000. N—a did a billion! You know what a billion is, man?

And $40,000 today isn’t really that much.

What you gonna do with $40 Gs? Somebody else is getting all that money, though. We f—k around and build the system ourself, they gonna start trying to bump us off. This is America, man.

You guys just did a farewell tour and you’ve voiced your feelings about RZA wanting to call it that while also bringing up acts like The Rolling Stones. What is it about touring that you enjoy so much?

I love it. We love it. You get a chance to be around your brothers, man, and you like to perform your music and see how it’s gonna come across to the people.

You’ll be like 80 performing Supreme Clientele like Frank Sinatra.

That’s the best part. On the stage with a cane or sitting down. All that s—t, man. Fall asleep, all that. Listen. I tell n—as, this ain’t boxing, this ain’t football, this ain’t golf, this is just rap. You just use your vocals, bro. That’s it. Be on stage with a cane on some Ron Isley sh—t. Be up there with furs, everybody got canes, swagged out.

I’m gonna probably still listen to Supreme Clientele when I’m 80.

I might make a new Supreme Clientele at 80.

Finish the trilogy.

I’m going in with 75-year-old darts.

Rap about some nursing home p—y that you got.

Exactly, tell her to take her dentures out. Straight gums. Gummy bear top. You can go anywhere with rap, I’m tryna tell you. You gotta tell your peers the truth. Medicaid ain’t doing it, whatever it is. Social Security, where my check, n—a? You gotta be coming with bars like that. Where my check at? That’ll be the hook.

Do you consider Wu-Tang to be the greatest group in rap history? Do you care about that?

I mean, I don’t really care about it, but I know we are, no disrespect to the greats. It’s the way we came in and we had our solo albums doing damage, RZA made it that we didn’t get locked into one deal, we still here over 30 years in the game, and still selling out arenas. The W is like Coca-Cola. We’re like The Rolling Stones. How that go? We were young guys from Staten Island.